In most cases this is fairly straightforward. Units recur quite frequently and are easy to identify. Bretonnian knights are a little more difficult though, as they don't always appear together and it seems there were a few units that WD used in a 'mix-and-match' kind of way.
Issue 129 of White Dwarf introduces the new range of Bretonnian miniatures, with painted examples from the Perrys. These figures are also included in dioramas in issues 130 and 131. What is interesting about these, is that they are effectively medieval dioramas, with the combatants being exclusively Bretonnian. It's also notable that in issue 130 there were rules for 'Chivalry', a
simple medieval combat card game which was explicitly historical rather
than fantasy based.
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| Issue 129 |
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| Issue 130 |
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| Issue 131 |
Later, in issue 136, an article appears about Bretonnian heraldry. The examples here are pretty simple, in nice bold colours. Nothing wrong with them at all, but quite a contrast to the more detailed Perry heraldry. The pictures which accompany the article show a new unit of Knights painted accordingly, although eagle eyed readers will spot a Perry unit fighting in the background!
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| Issue 136 |
So there seems to be a bit of a shift in focus around this time, from the distinctly historical looking knights to ones which look a bit more 'Warhammery'. It is the latter unit of knights which I want to replicate for my 15mm Bretonnian army. As it is not quite possible to discern the details of the heraldry on all the knights pictured, I dug around other issues from the time to try and find different photos of them. At this point I noticed something quite interesting was happening with Bretonnia in White Dwarf!
But first... here is a list of what White Dwarf contained about Bretonnia between issues 129 and 158:
129: First showing of new figures painted by Perrys
130: Perry diorama (and rules for Chivalry game)
131: Perry diorama
132-135: Nothing
136: Heraldry article
137: Amended army list. Pictures of new units. Army pictured in battle against Skaven.
138: New unit of knights, general, army standard, wizard. Heraldry revisited.
139-142: Nothing
143: 'Guest appearance': Pictured in Coaching Inn modelling article
144: 'Guest appearance': Pictured in modelling article
145: 'Guest appearance': Pictured in Elf/Empire v Undead battle
146-147: Nothing
148: 'Guest appearance': Pictured in rivers modelling article
149-152: Nothing
153: Battle report vs Dwarfs. Testing of 4th ed Magic rules
154: Nothing (Although army from 153 pictured as part of army deal offer)
155-158: Nothing
So looking at this list it seems like something quite odd happens with the Bretonnians. First, they are released to a bit of a fanfare and look rather historical. Then, from issue 136, that side of things takes a bit of a back seat to slightly more fantastical miniatures (although they all still look pretty much like medieval French). In 138 there are some new knights painted up along with some characters. This issue talks about work being in progress on the Bretonnian army and that it will be revealed properly when it is all painted. And after that.... pretty much nothing! All you really get is a few pictures of what you have already seen to accompany other articles. Even as early as 141 and 142 you get other armies shown off (Wood Elves and Undead). What happened to the Bretonnians?!
To add insult to injury, pretty much every issue from 146 until 4th Edition is released has articles and rule about The Empire. So it seems, perhaps, that Bretonnia wasn't 'fantasy' enough and was ditched in favour of The Empire. Not that that makes a great deal of sense, as the Empire is basically a historical army too (just with more Steam Tanks...!). Maybe Bretonnia lacked a distinctive theme running through it. Was that why it was reinvented as a pseudo-Arthurian nation for 5th Edition?
In a final touch of irony, it is the Bretonnians who fight the Dwarfs in issue 153 and get offered as an army deal in 154, even though they are effectively being dropped at this time as they get no army book for 4th Edition...
But first... here is a list of what White Dwarf contained about Bretonnia between issues 129 and 158:
129: First showing of new figures painted by Perrys
130: Perry diorama (and rules for Chivalry game)
131: Perry diorama
132-135: Nothing
136: Heraldry article
137: Amended army list. Pictures of new units. Army pictured in battle against Skaven.
138: New unit of knights, general, army standard, wizard. Heraldry revisited.
139-142: Nothing
143: 'Guest appearance': Pictured in Coaching Inn modelling article
144: 'Guest appearance': Pictured in modelling article
145: 'Guest appearance': Pictured in Elf/Empire v Undead battle
146-147: Nothing
148: 'Guest appearance': Pictured in rivers modelling article
149-152: Nothing
153: Battle report vs Dwarfs. Testing of 4th ed Magic rules
154: Nothing (Although army from 153 pictured as part of army deal offer)
155-158: Nothing
So looking at this list it seems like something quite odd happens with the Bretonnians. First, they are released to a bit of a fanfare and look rather historical. Then, from issue 136, that side of things takes a bit of a back seat to slightly more fantastical miniatures (although they all still look pretty much like medieval French). In 138 there are some new knights painted up along with some characters. This issue talks about work being in progress on the Bretonnian army and that it will be revealed properly when it is all painted. And after that.... pretty much nothing! All you really get is a few pictures of what you have already seen to accompany other articles. Even as early as 141 and 142 you get other armies shown off (Wood Elves and Undead). What happened to the Bretonnians?!
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| Issue 138 |
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| Issue 138 (but note, the 'new' knight on the far right is the one leading the charge in the picture from issue 136. The scamp!) |
To add insult to injury, pretty much every issue from 146 until 4th Edition is released has articles and rule about The Empire. So it seems, perhaps, that Bretonnia wasn't 'fantasy' enough and was ditched in favour of The Empire. Not that that makes a great deal of sense, as the Empire is basically a historical army too (just with more Steam Tanks...!). Maybe Bretonnia lacked a distinctive theme running through it. Was that why it was reinvented as a pseudo-Arthurian nation for 5th Edition?
In a final touch of irony, it is the Bretonnians who fight the Dwarfs in issue 153 and get offered as an army deal in 154, even though they are effectively being dropped at this time as they get no army book for 4th Edition...
So what started as a exercise in finding out what heraldry was painted on the Bretonnian knights turned into something a little unexpected... I wonder if anyone else noticed this shift at the time, or if it is only apparent when you sit down with 30 copies of White Dwarf and go through them all in one sitting! That is two and a half years worth of magazines after all!
Did you or anyone you know play with a Bretonnian army during the 3rd Edition period? Did you shift to using another army during 4th Edition? All comments and input welcome as always!
Did you or anyone you know play with a Bretonnian army during the 3rd Edition period? Did you shift to using another army during 4th Edition? All comments and input welcome as always!
Hi Chris,
ReplyDeleteAn interesting article (and project).
I was never in-too the Knights and the best I ever had was some Teutonic (Black crosses on White) which when varnished went a little cream?
I find that around this time I was far more ORCY and therefore not Empire or Bretonian.
Good Luck.
Tony
Thanks for the comment, Tony. The thought of painting knights generally makes me shiver. I think this project is the first time I've actually been properly interested in the prospect!
ReplyDeleteGreat stuff. Lovely Perry dioramas there. I like the way they brazenly present a couple of historical scenes as Warhammer. "Yeah, 'course it's fantasy - the wizards and dragons and stuff just weren't fighting in that battle". The main thing I remember of those articles was my friend and I looking at the Bretonnians vs Dwarves battle report and concluding that if we had been spending the Dwarf points, we would have wheeled out some cannon and a wall of crossbowmen and blown them to bits.
ReplyDeleteHi, I'm pleased you enjoyed it. The dioramas make me feel better about brazenly using medieval miniatures for my Bretonnians. Haha.
DeleteIf I recall correctly, there were quite a few restrictions on what the Dwarfs could take for that scenario. But they were distinctly lacking in firepower! Hmmm. Might have to refight that battle when I've got my figures painted and see what difference it would make!
I don't remember which pamphlet it was, but I had one GW one that announced that the Bretonnians would get the 4th army book in 4tg ed after Empire, Orcs, and one other I can't remember. I think they had plans, they just never got around to them.
ReplyDeleteHi Andrew. That's interesting! I wonder if it would have been more like the temporary list in the boxed game or if they already had plans for the army as seen in the 5th ed book...
DeleteNot a period or faction of warhammer I'm really interested in, but a nice piece of research and some great observations. Bravo!
ReplyDeleteI'm going to be uncharatble, and say that despite the focus in WD, the sales of figures probably wasn't enough to warrant the final push.
Well, thanks for taking the time to comment, especially if it doesnt match your specific interests! I'm pleased you enjoyed enjoyed it!
DeleteOn dear. Thinking sales might have been the big problem saddens me. That's not my rose-tinted view of that era! Haha. Good point though.
I think Zhu's probably on the money there. My main memory from that period was the new army list that was in WD dropping the contrast between the rascals and villains on one hand and the knights on the other which was so much a feature of the Warhammer Armies lists (and even those a makeover from the "decadence and complacency" of WFRP). Presumably an effort to make them more marketable to their audience (if less interesting to people like me).
DeleteEither the makeover didn't really work in sales terms, or they didn't feel they had it right until the 5th ed version. Or (again, cynically) it didn't merit the support until they had it distinct enough that you couldn't just field any old Barons' Wars figure and have it look Bretonnain.
That might explain why they went all 'over the top' with the 5th edition list and moved even further away from the historical look. Not that there is anything inherently wrong with what Bretonnian became, I just prefer the more 'grounded' version that suits how I see the setting more.
DeleteI don't know I think they got a pretty good run of it. Supported for a year or two all the time we must assume that the Perry's were working on the Empire range. It only makes sense that this range was the promoted when they came out. Wood elves used to be the main elven army but the release of the Goodwin high elves changed all that. It's just the way they oushed their own more recent ranges. There are plenty of the miniatures out there I assume once released they sold reasonably well for quite a few years until the release of the 5th ed ones.
ReplyDeleteI guess that's one way to see it, yes!
DeleteWhat got me noticing it really was when one issue promised pictures of the whole army coming soon and when I went looking for it it just didn't exisit.
Ah well.
The old Bretonnians were my favorites. All that Grail stuff ruined them for me.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. For me it wasn't so much the Arthurian aspects as the fact they were just taken to such an extreme that it all started to get a little daft.
DeleteI would have preferred that they continue with the Burgundian influences and perhaps develop the Bretonnians as the "evil" humans that were not as unified and together as The Empire.
DeleteTrue. Although I do tend to see everyone as "evil", or at the very best corrupt, in Warhammer! :)
Delete